Feedback is love, sure, but feedback should also be just that: feedback.

[ultraviolet9a]

I was going through superwiki trying to find some background info for some plot bunnies (i'm in a total brainstorming and plotting out and skinning plot bunnies phase, but when it comes to writing I can't focus. I think i'm going to lay low, let it all ferment and see what kind of stew comes up.) 

So anyway, I came to this section that explained what Fandom wank was (didn't know that existed, am trying to forget about it really) and I came upon a case where someone had commented on the work of someone else in a way that the recipient didn't like and it all escalated. 

So that got me thinking. How does one use concrit? And how does one accept it?

I mean, so far most of the stories I've read have been darn good and commenting is easy.

But what if you don't like a story you come across?

(And am not talking about genre here. I know I don't read Wincest and parts of me regrets it because I'm bloody sure there are some fantastic Wincest writers out there and I'm missing out on great wordweaving just cuz the genre is not my cup ot tea. I'm talking about dislike of the actual writing.)

What if a fic reminds you too much of a Mary Sue, or weak writing or weak plot or the characters are not spot on or whatever? What if you simply don't like it?  What if it doesn't click? What do you do? 

Do you say your opinion or do you push the back button of your browser and are done with it? (and I plead guilty of that too.)

They way I see it, if you put your writing or art or whatever out here, you have to be ready to accept criticism. That tells you that hey, stop overanalyzing, or check your tenses, or tie up your plots, or do a spell check or whatever. Or simply keep on doing what you're doing, cuz something about it is right. Cuz actual honest feedback helps.

As a reader, it somehow should be both duty and pleasure to say what I liked about the fic I read. Or how I think the story could improve.

So what if you come across something you don't like? Ay, there's the rub.

I know most people will tell Oh hey, I totally accept criticism if it's explained right and nicely
(and no, That Sucks, is not feedback, IMO. You can say the worst things in the nicest way if your intentions are the right ones, whatever that means.)
but I also know that when i first started writing fics (years ago, but this year is the first one i'm actually submitting) my beta and (sole) reader of those stories back then would tell me very nicely that Dude, this isn't working. Too much of a mary sure, no plot, etc. And at first I was like Shit, how can it be, this writing is my lovechild and my child can never be not working but once I calmed down and went through what she said I realized that 9 out of 10 (not 10 out of 10, she'll get cocky if she reads this : ) ) she had been right. And I know that my writing improved just cuz of that. (to the point, that once sucked into the lovely SPN verse I actually plucked up the courage and decided to put my writing out here. Which has been totally fun by the way. And lovely. And made me read a whole ton of gorgeous fics from various communities and writers and I'm drifting again)

So where was I? Right.

Feedback is love, sure, but feedback should also be just that: feedback.  Because love, to quote Wesley Wyndam Pryce, can be a terrible thing.

(Erm. Yes. Your feedback highly appreciated.)

Comments

[dodger-winslow.livejournal.com]

In theory, I absolutely agree with you. In practice, however, especially with internet fandoms, I've found 99.5% of those writing stories in need of criticism aren't interested in hearing anything negative about what they write. It's a damn shame, really, because the stuff that fails in a story teaches the writer much more than what works, and if the writer knew it failed, they likely (hopefully) wouldn't have put it out there.

But even so, very few are interested in hearing anything except the love.

Having learned this the hard way several times (cause I can be hard headed enough when someone asks for con-crit or a beta to actually con-crit or beta), I've defaulted out to just keeping most of the negatives to myself and putting good spin on the positives.

If there's something a good writer I've read consistently and who I trust in the response arena, I might offer something singular that actually interfered with a story I otherwise loved, or a characterization I found off or inadequately justified, but I even soft pedal those just for the sake of public decorum.

So for the most part, the only way anyone is ever going to get my TRUE opinion on the negative side of the coin is to speak to me offline. There, if I think I can believe the person who is asking for serious criticism, I might offer as much; although I'll often soft pedal it there, too, if I feel the person is asking for more truth than they want, or a truth that would squelch the excitment about writing.

On the other side of the coin though, I'm pretty up front and spot on with my positive crits. I have a line -- be the crit positive or negative -- that I won't cross, and that is I won't say something I don't mean.

So if I say "nice story" I mean it was a nice story, but there also might be thirty serious problems I had with it that I'll never mention.

On the other hand, if I say, "I frakking LOVED this story. Dean rocks!" there is no place in that comment to think anything other than what I just said. Which is to say, if I thought the writer was off on Dean's characterization, I would never say "Dean rocks." Rather I would say something along the lines of "Dean was great when he did this blah blah blah."

Does that make sense? Hopefully it does. I suppose overall what I'm saying is I love to leave positive feedback for someone who's given me a story I enjoy, whether I thought it was great writing or not. And I've learned not to offer con crit to any except those who specifically ask of it, and usually not even them.

Because the sad truth is fanfiction (not just SPN, but overall) is overwhelmingly written by people who want to share their love of a universe with others, not people who want to learn from their writing to become a better writer.* And it is chock full of egos that bruise easier than Summer peaches. So I prefer to play here, which I can do without pointing out all the places where the pain might be peeling or the characterization might be a little dusty.

Under different circumstances, I'd be happy to be the eyes and ears and sounding board for someone actually looking to improve as many, many, many have done that for me over the years (always at my solicitation though, them having learned this lesson the hard way, too). But in fannish forums? Nah. I'm here to play. The fanfic writers are here to play. I'll put a "How Stupid Do You Think I Am?" Icon on a post ripping the ass out of an episode, but I'm not willing to dog on someone's fanfic even if it could improve with a little doggin. Or a lot of doggin.

Does that make me a girl, Dean? :D

* I put this in to indicate that, oddly enough, there is a much higher ratio of serious writers with achievable expectations in SPN fandom than any other fandom I've ever read, including Trek.

[ultraviolet9a.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's what I thought too.

Sometimes (in the rare case of what I consider bad fic) my fingers are just itching to write an honest reply like "great idea, no need to focus on the OC any longer, she's a mary sue" or whatever, but I admit, I've chickened out. Practice rarely applies to theory, no?

I just wanted to know what other people thought too.

Thank you for taking the time to offer your opinion. Highly appreciated.

[smilla02.livejournal.com]

You just took the words out of my mouth. It's been a while that I wanted to ask my friends on lj what they think about the whole feedback thing.

Personally, when I don't like a story, for characterization, lack of a semi decent grammar (even if I'm not English and I'm not always sure about that) lack of respect of the pov and generally all those things that make me not enjoy a story, I simply click the back button and I'm done with it.

In general it works well, even if sometimes I want to rant when bad!fic get good feedback and good!fic get no feedback at all. But not my problem, I tell myself.

Also, always personally, I ask my beta(s) to rip my stories to shred and be brutally honest. I always insist on this point and say that I will not get offended etc. And I have noticed that my betas (who are some kickasses girls) actually improve my writing, and have improved it so much since the first time I decided to post a story for the public.

Also when I post a story I say that I'll accept constructive criticism and if someone would actually do that, I'd be happy, because even if I maybe do not agree on the critic, it will give me the chance to reflect more on that aspect. And in the end, when the sting passes (because there is always a slight sting) it is a good thing.

As for giving a constructive criticism, nope! I've been burned badly when someone explicitly asked for a concrit and insisted to have it, (insisted like very, very much) only to tell me in the end that I was being picky (and it was a matter of respect of the point of view, which I think is very important for a story well written and readable). That friendshop ended (not only for this reason) but I still feel sorry, would have kept the friend over the fic.

Now I either focus on the good part or don't leave feedback at all.

[ultraviolet9a.livejournal.com]

You just took the words out of my mouth Yei, telepathy! I'm Sammy-ing! *g*

I'm 100% with you on what you say. And yes, there is always a sting whenever you get critic even if you're not willing to admit it.

It's very smart and decent on your part clarifying everything before you give or accept criticism, because I guess not everyone sees it the same way.

In general it works well, even if sometimes I want to rant when bad!fic get good feedback and good!fic get no feedback at all. But not my problem, I tell myself. *nods* Yes. Big emphatic one too.

And I plead guilty of the back button, but I suspect that's the wisest approach to everything.

Thank you for giving me your take on the whole subject. Highly appreciated.

[hiyacynth.livejournal.com]

Me, 95% of the time, if I don't like a story I either bail out as soon as I realize it's not going to work on any level for me, or push through to the end and hit the Back button.

I agree that most fanfic writers who are posting their stories are looking for positive feedback, not criticism--constructive or not--whether they say they are or not. And unless I know someone really well and have been specifically asked to beta or otherwise tell them if something works for me, seems in character, or makes sense, I'm not going to offer it up.

Even with people I feel like I know well and am friendly with, I'm probably not going to call their characterization into question, for example. When I beta for new people, I always ask really clearly up front what kind of feedback they're looking for. The inverse is true: If I ask someone to beta for me, I try to let them know going in what my concerns with the story are.

Wow, that was a whole-lot-of-not-much response. I guess the short version is, if I have an issue with a story, and it's overcomeable (shut up, it is so a word), I'll leave feedback on the things I DID like about the story. If there's something keeping me from finding anything nice to say, I'll say nothing.

Um. Which is not to say that if I don't comment on something, I automatically hate it. I'm not one of those miracle fic readers who comments on everything--god, how I love those people. I can barely keep up with my reading, and sometimes, especially when I'm trying to catch up, I just don't take the time I should.

*uses old fandom's "pretentious writer" icon*

[ultraviolet9a.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. So my hunch to supress all teacher instincts (you know. Correcting and remarking in red pencil :) ) have been right so far.

Cuz yes, I think you're right, a lot of people post out their fic just for the clap on their back and the "nice job, mate" thingy. It's a choice I reckon.

*scratches head* To be honest, when I started posting a few months ago I was more in the writing workshop kind of mode. Just the thought of posting made me work...harder I guess. Not that the clap on the back and the nice job mate thingy didn't work for me, mind you, it's just that, I don't know. Writing workshop mode. *shrug*

So. Back browser button is a magic button. *g*

Thank you for telling me your thoughts on the whole thing. Very much appreciated indeed. *gives you more cookies*

[e313.livejournal.com]

and now you're quoting Mr. Pryce! *smile*
which is a bright spot in an otherwise bleak week. My monitor fried! %$#@#%&*&&^%$##%^&^%$$# i'd text but i stopped by to check mail so i thought i'd leave a note here. going back to mourning now....

[ultraviolet9a.livejournal.com]

Yes, am quoting Mr. Pryce. He said some interesting stuff.:)

And damn...your monitor... shit, pet. Sorry about that. *hug* On the bright side you can get an LCD one now, no?

From a reader's POV

[daydream03.livejournal.com]

To me writing is an art form, just like painting, music & such. I believe all art is subjective. While critiquing is an important element in creating a good story, I am not one to judge someone else's work simply because I don't write. I wonder how many so called writers have actually post their work on the 'net? Less than half I bet. If I'm not hooked in the first few paragraphs it usually means I don't like the story for whatever reason. I probably won't bother to finish reading it & therefor won't comment either. If I love the story I comment with personal insight to why I liked it or the feeling I get from it, but that's about it. I primarily read fan fic for enjoyment, just as you probably write it for enjoyment & nothing destroys that enjoyment more than stupid silly wank. Which IMO, stems from people take fan fic & fandoms way to serious. That's my two cents, shutting up now

Re: From a reader's POV

[ultraviolet9a.livejournal.com]

And your two cents are highly appreciated. *hug*

I think things start to go wrong not exactly or just because people take fic and fandoms way too seriously but because some don't have nice intentions and that shows through their comments. May sound naive, but that somehow clicks to me.

Also, not exactly sure I agree with you that a reader shouldn't be judging. You don't have to be a chef to know if you like the food you tasted or not, right? If one reads (for years) the sense of words has been developed. And as subjective as art may be, there are certain aspects of it that may constitute really really vague guidelines or else you wouldn't have any art schools at all.
But playing God in others' writing? I agree with you. You can't do that, no. You can simply state that in your opinion that worked, or that didn't.

And yeah, I didn't even know about what the hell the wank was about, i stumbled across it by accident and i was like "sheesh". Totally agree, it's silly and stupid.