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ultraviolet9aI was going through superwiki trying to find some background info for some plot bunnies (i'm in a total brainstorming and plotting out and skinning plot bunnies phase, but when it comes to writing I can't focus. I think i'm going to lay low, let it all ferment and see what kind of stew comes up.)
So anyway, I came to this section that explained what Fandom wank was (didn't know that existed, am trying to forget about it really) and I came upon a case where someone had commented on the work of someone else in a way that the recipient didn't like and it all escalated.
So that got me thinking. How does one use concrit? And how does one accept it?
I mean, so far most of the stories I've read have been darn good and commenting is easy.
But what if you don't like a story you come across?
So anyway, I came to this section that explained what Fandom wank was (didn't know that existed, am trying to forget about it really) and I came upon a case where someone had commented on the work of someone else in a way that the recipient didn't like and it all escalated.
So that got me thinking. How does one use concrit? And how does one accept it?
I mean, so far most of the stories I've read have been darn good and commenting is easy.
But what if you don't like a story you come across?
(And am not talking about genre here. I know I don't read Wincest and parts of me regrets it because I'm bloody sure there are some fantastic Wincest writers out there and I'm missing out on great wordweaving just cuz the genre is not my cup ot tea. I'm talking about dislike of the actual writing.)
What if a fic reminds you too much of a Mary Sue, or weak writing or weak plot or the characters are not spot on or whatever? What if you simply don't like it? What if it doesn't click? What do you do?
Do you say your opinion or do you push the back button of your browser and are done with it? (and I plead guilty of that too.)
They way I see it, if you put your writing or art or whatever out here, you have to be ready to accept criticism. That tells you that hey, stop overanalyzing, or check your tenses, or tie up your plots, or do a spell check or whatever. Or simply keep on doing what you're doing, cuz something about it is right. Cuz actual honest feedback helps.
As a reader, it somehow should be both duty and pleasure to say what I liked about the fic I read. Or how I think the story could improve.
So what if you come across something you don't like? Ay, there's the rub.
I know most people will tell Oh hey, I totally accept criticism if it's explained right and nicely
(and no, That Sucks, is not feedback, IMO. You can say the worst things in the nicest way if your intentions are the right ones, whatever that means.)
but I also know that when i first started writing fics (years ago, but this year is the first one i'm actually submitting) my beta and (sole) reader of those stories back then would tell me very nicely that Dude, this isn't working. Too much of a mary sure, no plot, etc. And at first I was like Shit, how can it be, this writing is my lovechild and my child can never be not working but once I calmed down and went through what she said I realized that 9 out of 10 (not 10 out of 10, she'll get cocky if she reads this : ) ) she had been right. And I know that my writing improved just cuz of that. (to the point, that once sucked into the lovely SPN verse I actually plucked up the courage and decided to put my writing out here. Which has been totally fun by the way. And lovely. And made me read a whole ton of gorgeous fics from various communities and writers and I'm drifting again)
So where was I? Right.
Feedback is love, sure, but feedback should also be just that: feedback. Because love, to quote Wesley Wyndam Pryce, can be a terrible thing.
(Erm. Yes. Your feedback highly appreciated.)
What if a fic reminds you too much of a Mary Sue, or weak writing or weak plot or the characters are not spot on or whatever? What if you simply don't like it? What if it doesn't click? What do you do?
Do you say your opinion or do you push the back button of your browser and are done with it? (and I plead guilty of that too.)
They way I see it, if you put your writing or art or whatever out here, you have to be ready to accept criticism. That tells you that hey, stop overanalyzing, or check your tenses, or tie up your plots, or do a spell check or whatever. Or simply keep on doing what you're doing, cuz something about it is right. Cuz actual honest feedback helps.
As a reader, it somehow should be both duty and pleasure to say what I liked about the fic I read. Or how I think the story could improve.
So what if you come across something you don't like? Ay, there's the rub.
I know most people will tell Oh hey, I totally accept criticism if it's explained right and nicely
(and no, That Sucks, is not feedback, IMO. You can say the worst things in the nicest way if your intentions are the right ones, whatever that means.)
but I also know that when i first started writing fics (years ago, but this year is the first one i'm actually submitting) my beta and (sole) reader of those stories back then would tell me very nicely that Dude, this isn't working. Too much of a mary sure, no plot, etc. And at first I was like Shit, how can it be, this writing is my lovechild and my child can never be not working but once I calmed down and went through what she said I realized that 9 out of 10 (not 10 out of 10, she'll get cocky if she reads this : ) ) she had been right. And I know that my writing improved just cuz of that. (to the point, that once sucked into the lovely SPN verse I actually plucked up the courage and decided to put my writing out here. Which has been totally fun by the way. And lovely. And made me read a whole ton of gorgeous fics from various communities and writers and I'm drifting again)
So where was I? Right.
Feedback is love, sure, but feedback should also be just that: feedback. Because love, to quote Wesley Wyndam Pryce, can be a terrible thing.
(Erm. Yes. Your feedback highly appreciated.)
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no subject
Date: 2007-02-05 09:14 pm (UTC)But even so, very few are interested in hearing anything except the love.
Having learned this the hard way several times (cause I can be hard headed enough when someone asks for con-crit or a beta to actually con-crit or beta), I've defaulted out to just keeping most of the negatives to myself and putting good spin on the positives.
If there's something a good writer I've read consistently and who I trust in the response arena, I might offer something singular that actually interfered with a story I otherwise loved, or a characterization I found off or inadequately justified, but I even soft pedal those just for the sake of public decorum.
So for the most part, the only way anyone is ever going to get my TRUE opinion on the negative side of the coin is to speak to me offline. There, if I think I can believe the person who is asking for serious criticism, I might offer as much; although I'll often soft pedal it there, too, if I feel the person is asking for more truth than they want, or a truth that would squelch the excitment about writing.
On the other side of the coin though, I'm pretty up front and spot on with my positive crits. I have a line -- be the crit positive or negative -- that I won't cross, and that is I won't say something I don't mean.
So if I say "nice story" I mean it was a nice story, but there also might be thirty serious problems I had with it that I'll never mention.
On the other hand, if I say, "I frakking LOVED this story. Dean rocks!" there is no place in that comment to think anything other than what I just said. Which is to say, if I thought the writer was off on Dean's characterization, I would never say "Dean rocks." Rather I would say something along the lines of "Dean was great when he did this blah blah blah."
Does that make sense? Hopefully it does. I suppose overall what I'm saying is I love to leave positive feedback for someone who's given me a story I enjoy, whether I thought it was great writing or not. And I've learned not to offer con crit to any except those who specifically ask of it, and usually not even them.
Because the sad truth is fanfiction (not just SPN, but overall) is overwhelmingly written by people who want to share their love of a universe with others, not people who want to learn from their writing to become a better writer.* And it is chock full of egos that bruise easier than Summer peaches. So I prefer to play here, which I can do without pointing out all the places where the pain might be peeling or the characterization might be a little dusty.
Under different circumstances, I'd be happy to be the eyes and ears and sounding board for someone actually looking to improve as many, many, many have done that for me over the years (always at my solicitation though, them having learned this lesson the hard way, too). But in fannish forums? Nah. I'm here to play. The fanfic writers are here to play. I'll put a "How Stupid Do You Think I Am?" Icon on a post ripping the ass out of an episode, but I'm not willing to dog on someone's fanfic even if it could improve with a little doggin. Or a lot of doggin.
Does that make me a girl, Dean? :D
* I put this in to indicate that, oddly enough, there is a much higher ratio of serious writers with achievable expectations in SPN fandom than any other fandom I've ever read, including Trek.
no subject
Date: 2007-02-06 06:38 pm (UTC)Sometimes (in the rare case of what I consider bad fic) my fingers are just itching to write an honest reply like "great idea, no need to focus on the OC any longer, she's a mary sue" or whatever, but I admit, I've chickened out. Practice rarely applies to theory, no?
I just wanted to know what other people thought too.
Thank you for taking the time to offer your opinion. Highly appreciated.